Melissa Joy is joined by Financial Behavior Specialist®, Speaker, and Therapist Ashley Quamme LMFT, to discuss the intricate intersection of relationships and finances.
How do we talk about money with a partner when our perspectives differ? What are practical ways to navigate when one partner is a spender, and the other is a saver? Ashley dives into the complexities of love and money and how to navigate the money differences that happen in many relationships.
Listen and Learn:
Resources:
Links are being provided for information purposes only. The information herein is general and educational in nature and should not be considered legal or tax advice. Tax laws and regulations are complex and subject to change, which can materially impact investment results. Pearl Planning cannot guarantee that the information herein is accurate, complete, or timely. Pearl Planning makes no warranties with regard to such information or results obtained by its use and disclaims any liability arising out of your use of, or any tax position taken in reliance on, such information. Consult an attorney or tax professional regarding your specific situation. Please note, changes in tax laws or regulations may occur at any time and could substantially impact your situation. Pearl Planning financial advisors do not render advice on tax matters. You should discuss any tax matters with the appropriate professional.
Melissa Joy is joined by Financial Behavior Specialist®, Speaker, and Therapist Ashley Quamme LMFT, to discuss the intricate intersection of relationships and finances.
How do we talk about money with a partner when our perspectives differ? What are practical ways to navigate when one partner is a spender, and the other is a saver? Ashley dives into the complexities of love and money and how to navigate the money differences that happen in many relationships.
Listen and Learn:
Resources:
Links are being provided for information purposes only. The information herein is general and educational in nature and should not be considered legal or tax advice. Tax laws and regulations are complex and subject to change, which can materially impact investment results. Pearl Planning cannot guarantee that the information herein is accurate, complete, or timely. Pearl Planning makes no warranties with regard to such information or results obtained by its use and disclaims any liability arising out of your use of, or any tax position taken in reliance on, such information. Consult an attorney or tax professional regarding your specific situation. Please note, changes in tax laws or regulations may occur at any time and could substantially impact your situation. Pearl Planning financial advisors do not render advice on tax matters. You should discuss any tax matters with the appropriate professional.
Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Pearl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show. Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1:You may hear some ambient noise today because I am thrilled to be at a conference this week. I'm here at Shift, which is a conference that's all about the technical aspects of financial planning being intersected and kind of in tension with the personal and the human side of advice, and I thought I would give you, our listeners, an introduction to behavioral finance and what it really means to be thinking about that human side with an extra special guest. So I have Ashley Kwame with me. She is a marriage and family therapist who also has clientele who are financial planners like me, and she teaches us how to think differently about money and finances. We are going to go into some aspects of behavioral finance and really talk in some specific examples about how it can make a difference to be not be a therapist, but be familiar with how relationships interact with your money. So, Ashley, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Melissa, for having me Give us a little introduction. I didn't do much about your background, so tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Speaker 2:So, as you said, I'm a marriage and family therapist by trade and education. So clinically I've had a practice for almost 15 years now where I specialize really in couples. It's been my niche for well over a decade. Now I have a husband who's a financial planner Perfect, yes, you would think it is most days. Most days it is, but transition really into the financial space came about a lot of just through our relationship and conversations we had mostly about couples issues that would come up around money and love and relationships, and so the last several years I've pivoted, and maybe not truly pivoted, but added another arm to the services that I offer, which is helping financial advisors and integrating really financial psychology and behavioral finance into their practice, helping them understand really what's below the surface as far as what's going on with their clients.
Speaker 1:That aspect is so important and you mentioned there is financial therapy out there nowadays. There are people who are devoted to practicing with patients on how they interact with money, which is so important for some people. But then there's also this part of our world that is all about how we think about dealing with our clients, the financial planners, with money, and I hope everyone's ears are perked up because I know many of you are in a relationship and even if it's not a marital relationship, still there are power dynamics and things happening when it comes to money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Even in couples that are cohabitating, who are choosing to live together for however long, whether it's indefinitely or for an extended time, there are certainly power dynamics, amongst other things. And the financial aspect for couples just in general is one that I find and I don't know about you and your work, but I find that most couples don't think to talk about right out of the gate, or even if it's 10, 15, 20 years, maybe even into the relationship, just that one aspect similar to sex but probably harder than sex. You know, it's just difficult to talk about.
Speaker 1:You have an identity that's about money from the time you're born, you're, you know, told, you're a spender, you're a saver, all of these things and when you enter a relationship, that identity comes with you and evolves, but oftentimes with the lack of communication between partners, yeah Well, and even awareness too.
Speaker 2:So sometimes just not having the awareness of I have a relationship with money or an identity too and with that, and then how do I communicate that with my partner?
Speaker 1:That's such a big deal. So when, as a practitioner, how do you either? Well, let's start from from the side of therapist, psychologist, how do you approach families who come to you and want to talk about? You know, money's getting in the way of our relationship, or something like that. I don't have trust, or what are some of the examples?
Speaker 2:So I use a set of behavioral finance assessments through data points is one tool. The examples so I use a set of behavioral finance assessments through data points is one tool I would say that I use, and so I use those for most of my couples as a great starting point to engaging in the conversation around what's below the surface and maybe why, trying to make those connections to earlier experiences, as you said, those identities, beliefs that we maybe aren't aware of. Maybe we are, but at least using that as a starting point. So those are a fantastic resource that I like to use. And then much of it there is just exploration and trying to build that bridge. The knowledge and doing gap is trying to build that bridge from an individual place but then also a relational place as well.
Speaker 1:Could you give us an example of what a money challenge might be in a relationship? What have people come to you and wanted to talk about? Or what have you uncovered under the surface after people come to you in conflict?
Speaker 2:Certainly, the save, spend, saver, spender dynamic is a very, very common one. That's one that you know tends to show up a lot. But there are also you know, we were talking kind of before we started recording about power dynamics that show up within couples, particularly if one partner is making significantly more, or if maybe one partner chooses to stay home to help with kids or household things.
Speaker 2:And there's that, then dynamic, so power dynamics can show up, but transparency is also another one, and being transparent about whether it's feelings, whether it's emotions, but also spending habits too, and depending upon how couples set up their accounts and you probably see this, whether it's joint or separate like depending upon how they set those up it can lead to some slippery slopes when it comes to transparency.
Speaker 1:So full disclosure. We're sitting here in Orlando, I have the family and I've been at Disney and I was just mentioning when we were starting this podcast, hey, I need to buy the Lightning Lane for Guardians of the Galaxy. And I said to you, ashley, yeah, I don't tell my husband how much we spent and you were like, oh, that'll be interesting for the episode. I do tell him I'm not telling him and say, if you want to know, I will tell you. But that is so true, like there is. You know, sometimes there's one person in the family that writes all the checks, or sometimes you do have separate money and you may not have the option or create the opportunity to share information, which is one of the kind of powers of a financial planner to say, hey, let's get it all, let's make a list of all the accounts.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well, and for business owners too, you know, I find that that's a very interesting dynamic. So if one or both partners is self-employed and owns a business, you know they may not feel like they need to bring their partner into the business financials, but can be some things that go on in a business that it might be helpful, from a place of transparency, to share with your partner to share with your partner.
Speaker 1:I 100% agree, because in so many cases, for better or worse, you are married to your partner's business. If they're an entrepreneur and if they're not doing well, it can be a big deal to both of you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure you've seen some situations where there wasn't enough lead time and that gets into people's pride. It gets. It's not only about deception, it's. It's about they may not know how much trouble they're in, or you know a variety of different things, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, as you've kind of pivoted and you've taken your knowledge with therapy, with families and turned that into a career where you're working with financial planners, talking about that, what do you try to tell us, what's important for us to understand as we work with our clients?
Speaker 2:A lot of that centers around just communication basics and practices. So that is one aspect increasing emotional intelligence. So what's interesting? Funny, I don't know, but financial planners, I've learned they're not taught communication or emotional intelligence type skills. That's true, but in the same, like therapists, we're not taught the business financial skills in our graduate and education programs.
Speaker 2:So there's just this lack on both ends and that's a whole nother podcast we're not here to talk about. But so where I find that I can add and bring value is helping initially with that piece like understanding communication, understanding human behavior, understanding just relationships and what builds trust and safety, even in professional relationships. And then, beyond that, it's really the psychology aspect. So what is going on in the minds of clients, how to examine client behavior and then craft your communication in such a way that it can help the client, maybe perhaps change or, you know, offer a new perspective or maybe not get so defensive when you're offering strategies or advice or just all of those things. So I come in and I partner with firms and serve as that in-house go-to for both the advisors but also for their clients as well.
Speaker 1:There is so much. This is a newer area, that intersection. I know it's been around for a while in different you know kind of forms, but it's really getting more technical nowadays to talk about these types of things. I feel like the financial planning practitioners in pearl planning in our practice do have some of that relational aspect. What I see as examples if you're sitting there wondering whether your advisor is one versus the other is like do you only talk about your accounts and your statements? Are you talking about what's important in your life and how your money can kind of become a resource for that? Those are two very different kind of dynamics. But if you had a financial planner who really wanted to work on that communication aspect, what are some of the strategies they may employ with their clients or how would they approach that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like to talk about the rules of engagement. So rule is an acronym. I am not that smart to come up with it. So this stems from motivational interviewing, which is a therapy practice model, if you will. But it has transcended beyond just counseling and it's kind of moved into other more allied professions as well. So the RULE acronym is, you know, the R stands for the writing reflex, so jumping in to just fix it and solve the problem. So client has a problem and if the advisor just jumps in to immediately answer, solve and say, well, this is what you should do, that reflex.
Speaker 2:Without the listening Correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, similar in our relationships. You know, and I hear a lot of my female clients will say you know, I just want you to listen, I don't need you to fix it. You know, unfortunately and this is being very stereotypical here but our male then partners, they just want to fix it. They want to fix it, they want to solve it and then let's move on. And there's that aspect and dynamic even within you know, the advisor client relationship.
Speaker 2:You know to, maybe unintentionally, but trying to resist that reflex initially and become more curious and explore, like, what is really going on here. Maybe, using some discernment, is this a time or a moment where I need to jump in and offer solutions or is this a time where I need to listen? Very interesting. So that's the R, the U is the understanding, the motivation. So what is behind the client's motivation for wanting to not allocate maybe discretionary funds to savings or investing? What is that motivation there? Is it a time in life, phase of life issue? Is there some kind of other sense of urgency? Is there a psychological barrier, like maybe they never saw themselves living past 50.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've heard that Maybe not 50, but yeah, I know when I'm going to die.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that can be helpful to understand that motivation. L is listening, so being able to listen from an active place, and then the E is empathy, so being able to, you know, give your clients empathy and compassion there. So you know, that's kind of a fun little acronym that I like to use and kind of work through that lens of helping from a communication standpoint.
Speaker 1:Well, I can see how that would work in a relationship as well. So if you need to rewind, I'm thinking to this family vacation that is only just begun.
Speaker 2:we'll be on the road for seven days, you know what's funny is that hearing you say that I feel so silly. But I'm like, oh, I never even considered that it's a great rule for also our romantic relationship. So that feels so silly now and I'm so thankful that you said that.
Speaker 1:Especially the E, I mean the empathy. I think after you've been in a relationship for a long time, it's a lot easier to be like. I've read this dialogue, I already know the answer.
Speaker 1:And you're not there for each other. I think that opens the door to one of the things that I really think it's important for people to understand when they're working with a financial planner that if they can't be vulnerable, if they can't say how they really feel, if they feel like they need to have kind of their suit of armor on when they come to a financial planner and they can't explain why they feel uncomfortable, even if they don't know why, then it might not be the right financial planner, because really you need someone who you can call on your worst day and say here's the situation. How do we work this out?
Speaker 2:Right, I would agree. Where that becomes tricky I don't know if you experience this I hear other advisors and clients actually too is they'll say well, my partner feels really comfortable with the advisor, but I could kind of take it early Like I don't know, and you know that opens up an opportunity, even from a couple's place, to be able to talk about that. Because working with an advisor with respect to a couple, you know you both should feel comfortable, maybe not to the same degree, it doesn't have to be equal, but it should be where both of us mostly feel comfortable, being able to talk and engage and be vulnerable, as you said.
Speaker 1:I love that and I agree, sometimes I have people that come to me it's the, the male in the relationship that actually engages with us because they say we want someone who are for our spouse, who is not as into money even though that, you know, that's a generalization and isn't all of our clients but to feel like they're seen in the room. And I've definitely heard other circumstances where, you know, the male always got the phone call, even if it's her accounts, or there was, you know, eye contact with one person in the room at a joint meeting and it was him, and so that does kind of come up, but not I think it's getting better. But you do need someone that you vibe with and I always encourage. You know, if one partner reaches out to talk about working with us, hey, let your ask your partner to schedule a meeting to. If they want to, we can get the process started. We would typically work together with them. But it's important for both of you to feel the vibe and that's not just technical, I agree.
Speaker 2:That's actually talking about being here. My husband Clayton and I you're teeing us up, because that's part of what we'll be talking about later today is engaging spouses.
Speaker 2:We think about one being non-engaged or unengaged and it might be, but you know there are certain things as advisors that can be done that really can impact and shape that engagement level. And so if you're a partner listening to this right now and you feel like, oh gosh, everything Melissa just said, I feel like my advisor does like they tend to maybe look more to my husband and I'm talking heterosexual relationships here, generalization but if they're looking more to like my husband and you know they're not really engaging me and he always gets the calls, you know those are kind of those red flags, right, and they may not be doing it intentionally because they're awful terrible, you know, misogynist but, it's probably a lack of awareness, but it might be worth bringing that up, maybe not to the advisor if you're not comfortable, but at least to your partner, at least to your spouse, and say, hey, have you noticed this Like this doesn't make me feel super great.
Speaker 2:And then you should immediately call Melissa.
Speaker 1:Well, I just think you should be seen in your engagement because a financial planner, when done right, can be so powerful for not just like buying things and selling things more for you feeling more confidence when it comes to money. I just find so many people carry around insecurity. With money, that is, you don't have to do that if you have someone who's right, where you can tell your insecurities and they can tell you hey, I'm going to tell you where you're doing a good job. And also let's make a list of the things that you have opportunity for improvement and prioritize. So it's not overwhelming that you deserve that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially for women too, and I know you know you shared with me that your audience, there's a lot of female here and so I think that that's such a great message women to also hear, because and this is again a whole other podcast we could talk about but as females typically we're not taught those things growing up, and so then that can translate even into our partnership is more financially, I say, dominant but knowledgeable. Yeah, we can kind of take that backseat and I see that dynamic come up a lot, really intelligent, bright women, but they just take a backseat in their relationship to the finances and, truth be told, like I was definitely one of those and, I don't know, maybe still am to a degree. But it's really important to feel empowered and that's where a financial advisor who you know sees really the relationship as the client, not just one partner, for sure Can make a huge difference in that.
Speaker 1:Well, and I just was thinking, as you were mentioning, that you know one partner kind of taking the driver's seat that in so many cases a partner can come in and say I'm really good at this and you know she just this isn't her thing or his thing, and they may really have flexed a muscle in one aspect, like maybe they're, they've got it dialed in when it comes to investments, but they don't on spending or they don't on retirement, you know kind of readiness or where you're allocating your capital, and so sometimes that overconfidence whether it's a female or male, can leave the family with blind spots that are critical Absolutely. And so one of my jobs sometimes is to honor that. Like, yeah, you've got it going on when it comes to how you've invested, but have you been putting the right amount of money into accounts or things like that. So that is, you know the other partner may not feel they have permission in the you know communication to ask things, and that's where a professional can really help with those blind spots. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that the audience will be looking, after they hear this, to have more resources. I know that you know, like this to me what's the appetite of? How can we do more? Where can people find you, or do you have any kind of information out on the web that would be useful to the audience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I can be found. I'm pretty findable, but my clinical practice is the Wealthy Marriage. And so if you just type that into your, as my granddad says, your Google machine, type that into your, as my granddad says, your Google machine, type that into your Google machine the Wealthy Marriage, my clinical practice.
Speaker 2:it's a virtual practice, so you can find that there, from an advisory standpoint, beyond the Plan, is my consulting arm. You can Google that as well. I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter primarily. I have Instagram accounts, but that's not been my favorite place to hang out but other resources, I think, for your clients. The Financial Therapy Clinical Institute is a fantastic resource, offering information and resources for clients, as well as the Financial Therapy Association is also a great resource as well.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll make sure to include links in the show notes and, ashley, I can see that we should be having other conversations in the future. Thank you so much for joining us, and I'll see your presentation later today.
Speaker 2:Thanks, melissa, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the women's money wisdom podcast. If you found value in this episode, the best way you can support the podcast is to forward an episode to a friend or leave a review. Go to pearlplancom and the podcast link to get all the resources and links mentioned.