Women's Money Wisdom

Episode 293: Women, Wealth & Worth: Closing the Gaps with Bryn Conway

• Melissa Joy, CFP® • Season 1 • Episode 293

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What if knowing your worth became the engine of your wealth?

Strategist and former credit-union executive Bryn Conway joins Melissa Joy, CFP® for a candid, practical conversation about women, wealth, and worth—why the gaps persist and how to close them with informed choices, confident negotiation, and everyday money moves.

Bryn breaks down the landscape—pay, advancement, earnings, and wealth—and how culture, career paths, and compensation structures (including equity) shape outcomes. She shares simple, repeatable actions: normalize money conversations, apply before you feel “100% ready,” negotiate every offer, and “pay future-you first.” Melissa adds planner-level insights on using a financial plan to manage your human capital—from asking for more to aligning your role with your goals.

Together, Bryn and Melissa reframe the path forward: turn passive awareness into active steps that compound over time, build resilience, and help women advance—at work and in wealth.

This episode is a reminder that your value isn’t just recognized—it’s negotiated, nurtured, and compounded.

💡 Key Themes Covered:

  • The four gaps women face: pay, advancement/opportunity, lifetime earnings, and wealth
  • Why roles, sectors, and equity compensation widen outcomes—and how to navigate them
  • “Apply anyway”: closing the confidence gap and raising your hand before you feel ready
  • Negotiation playbook: know the comps, make a specific ask, and revisit review/raise cadence
  • “Pay future-you first”: enroll in the match and send half of every raise to long-term savings
  • Normalize money talks: mentors, sponsors, and transparent check-ins that build confidence and change results


The previous presentation by PEARL PLANNING was intended for general information purposes only. No portion of the presentation serves as the receipt of, or as a substitute for, personalized investment advice from PEARL PLANNING or any other investment professional of your choosing. Different types of investments involve varying degrees of risk, and it should not be assumed that future performance of any specific investment or investment strategy, or any non-investment related or planning services, discussion or content, will be profitable, be suitable for your portfolio or individual situation, or prove successful. Neither PEARL PLANNING’s investment adviser registration status, nor any amount of prior experience or success, should be construed that a certain level of results or satisfaction will be achieved if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. PEARL PLANNING is neither a law firm nor accounting firm, and no portion of its services should be construed as legal or accounting advice. No portion of the video content should be construed by a client or prospective client as a guarantee that he/she will experience a certain level of results if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. A copy of PEARL PLANNING’s current written disclosure Brochure discussing our advisory services and fees is available upon request or at https:...

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Perl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence, and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money, and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show. Welcome back to the Women's Money Wisdom podcast. It's Melissa Joy here, joined by a very special guest. She has done incredible research pulling together ideas and information about women and our worth. Brynn Conway, who is a former credit union executive, has 20 plus years of experience in banking and financial institutions. She helps organizations grow by focusing on brand development, member experience, and marketing strategy, but she is doing a lot of amazing work when it comes to women, wealth, and their worth. Bryn, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Melissa. Appreciate it. Well, I feel like it's a particularly good time to be talking about this. Not that it ever isn't. Um, but I was um uh reading this week that women have had the second consecutive year of decline when it comes to the wealth gap. I know. Um, primarily, I guess, because um certain um very high net worth or high income sectors of men are just pulling ahead of everybody else. But it I just hate to see those stats. Um, and it makes me think that conversations like the one we're gonna have today are just so important. So you've done some amazing work on it called Women and Worth. Um and to get started, can you just introduce me to the concept of women and worth and tell me how you started to do the research?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Um, well, I will tell you that. So I've worked in, as you said in my bio, I worked in financial institutions and credit unions for my entire career. And I I think it's interesting. Um, and I have a my background is in I have a degree in sociology and psychology, and then I have an OEA. But I'm always curious about why things happen the way that they happen. And so I, you know, working in financial institutions for 20 plus years, you get to understand your members, and especially when you're marketing to them, and you get to understand your members and your customers and their behaviors. And what we know is that women actually make 80 to 85% of the financial decisions that are made in households. Um, and so women have um, they touch the financial decisions and their financial lives are very extensive and they're making financial decisions for their family. But on the flip side of it, women are actually at a very distinct disadvantage when it comes to their financial lives. And it all starts with the pay gap, as you talked about. And it what the pay gap does is it leads to gaps in advancement in their careers, it leads to advancement uh gaps in um earnings and wealth. And as they progress throughout their financial lives, um it just adds up to a huge inequality. So for me, uh talking to women, being surrounded by women in financial services, and knowing that women are making the majority of the financial decisions in the households, for me, I just got really curious as to what we can, and that's everyone included, do to better the financial lives of women. Because it's not just a woman's issue, it's a family issue, it's a society issue, it's a community issue. So how do we do that? And and where do we start? And I think that that's where I really got curious when it came to women and worth. It's it's it's a passion project for me because I think that um there's a lot of things that we can do. And I think that um where it all starts is understanding and having the mindset and recognizing that, you know, women's financial lives are very different than men. And so, what do we do so that we once we recognize that we can take some steps as organizations, employers, friends, colleagues to better the financial lives of women? And that's really what I what I want to do is I just want to start a conversation and I want people to be aware um with that objective of how do we better the financial lives of women?

SPEAKER_02:

I love that so much. I think that you know, we're talking about statistics that are for you know huge cohorts of people, more half of the population of our country. And yet for you as a listener, whether you're a woman listening who wants to better your own outcomes and the outcomes of the women you care about, or if you're not a female listener and you're thinking, hey, there are people I love and who are important to me that I want to ensure that they have the same opportunities, the same wealth, um, and that they're financially comfortable and stable. Um, while we're talking about, you know, kind of where the statistics are as big, big groups, there's a lot we can discuss and be aware of and be not passive but active participants in that affect us from the ground up on a one-on-one basis. Um and I think that's what some of your research is pointing out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So I I think um I I made reference to the gaps. So let's just talk about them a little bit because I would love that.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

I think most people are familiar with the pay gap. And as you said, I heard the same and read the same news articles last week, and I was just I was disappointed because I think for the last 20 years, women have done a pretty good job of um narrowing that pay gap. And so I think that there's two things that we need to understand when we we talk about the pay gap, which is um there is what's called the all-work gap. So when you're comparing men versus women in all jobs across all sectors, um, that is what we call the all work pay gap. And so for that, um the most recent um uh research that I have on that is that the pay gap is about 83 cents on the dollar, is what women make to men. And then there's what's I call the equal work, equal pay. And there's still a gap there. So that's 99 cents on the dollar for what women make to men. So that's where the pay gap is. But the pay gap in it in and of itself leads to this lifetime of financial gaps. So I think it's important to recognize the pay gap, and we can talk a little bit about the why that exists as we started to in the beginning. But the second gap that we really need to think about and look at, where I think we can really have the most impact in probably the shortest amount of time, is the advancement and opportunity gap. And I like to think about this gap as this is the career ladder. And so unfortunately, what we find when we do the research is that women's um it's harder for women to progress up the ladder, it takes them more time, and fewer women than men get to the top of the ladder, and their ladders are shorter. And it's just that simple. And so when you think about it, this is where when you uh the career advancement and the statistic that I think gets me is that uh there are at age 45 women in the workforce, 60% of them are at an individual contributor role. So compared to 45% of men. And so we all know, and we've been we've been doing this for long enough to know that if you manage people, processes, and departments, then you make more money. If you are an individual contributor, you make less money. So 60% of women at age 45 being in an individual contributor role, we know where that pay is going to be. Then it's also staggering when you look at it that only 4% of women in their career make it to the executive level compared to 8% of men. And unfortunately, when I talk about that pay gap, you would think it would get better at the executive level, but it does not. And it's actually a bigger pay gap at the executive level. So the all-work level, women make 72 cents on the dollar for male executives in comparison to male executives. And so, you know, and we again, we should talk about the why with all of that, but I'll just kind of lay that out. So those are some things for us to think about, those two gaps, but that really goes into the lifetime earnings and wealth gaps, right? Which are the two things that I think that are the other side of the uh spectrum as we look at women's financial lives. And so that earnings gap is if you're making less throughout your career and you're staying in less paying positions throughout your career, you're obviously going to have less at the end. But the staggering part of this is that for those women in the all work um pay gap group, those women make on average a million dollars less in their careers than men. And so when that happens, you think about it, you're a financial planner. This is the power of compounding interest, right? So what are we losing out in that? And then even when you look at the equal pay for equal work, which by the way, it's still not, right? Um, women are making$100,000 less over their lifetime. And again, think about the power of time and compounding interest and what they could be earning on that if it were truly equal work for equal pay. So that gets us to the end of our financial lives, right? Where we're looking to retire. And now um it's the staggering result that on average women have 32 cents on the dollar saved uh in terms of a wealth comparison to men. And so when we look about it, well, it's maybe not that big of a deal because, you know, uh they've got some money saved and it's work equal work and equal pay. But you know what the bad news is on this side of it, Lissa, is that women live longer than men. And if you have earned less throughout your career, that means that your Social Security benefits are less too. So we can see that this all starts with the pay gap and goes throughout our financial lives. And so, what can we do in these different parts of the gaps? Those are the things that are interesting to me, um, that we can make some differences to make it so that women's financial lives are better and that they can make better decisions uh and be stronger and live stronger financial lives. That's really what I'm interested in.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. I mean, you're describing resilience, right? Financial resilience. Um, so tell me what the things that maybe you were already expecting, and perhaps there's some surprises when it comes to the method to have that financial security and flexibility.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I think I I want to talk, I'll talk a little bit in terms of the gaps, and then I'll talk about some things that I think we can do individually. So, because a lot of these things, the gaps are very much institutional and organizational and societal when we look at it. So it's kind of the macro level. But I think, you know, we should all be aware of that. We should think about that in our organizations and our businesses, um, but we should also think about it at an individual level. So if you don't mind, I'll I'll start at the macro and then we'll go to the individual level of that. I'm in.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I think, you know, talking about um the advancement and uh opportunity gap, that's what I like to call it. Let's call it opportunity, because I think that that allows us to think about the fact that we can make a difference, we can make changes. Um, so how do we help women advance? And so I talked about the executive level, and I'm an executive and I'm a business owner. And so I would say that I'm the 4%. Um, but what I think is difficult about that is is how do you get to be one, how do you get to be part of the 4%? And two, um, you know, how what do we do with that pay gap between the executives and why does it exist? And again, I think it's understanding that. So I'm gonna start there. I'll talk about that. So unfortunately, the reason that it's different because we're executives and it's all work group comparing executives, 72 cents on the dollar for women to men. So why does that happen? Well, simply put, it's because women go into lower paying jobs as a whole. And guess what? Those lower paying jobs are lower paying executives. And so those roles are what we would traditionally think of when we think of when women make it to the C-suite. They are in HR roles, they are in marketing roles, they are in roles that tend to not have golden handcuffs, tend to not have contracts, and tend to not pay as well as what are the other C-suite titles that we see. You know, chief um financial officers tend to be men, CEOs tend to be men, chief technology officers tend to be men. And as you were saying at the top of the podcast, well, those are the high earning men that are outpacing women as we look at at the pay gap, right? And so that's very true at the executive level.

SPEAKER_02:

And then that I'll just mention there too, we've had an episode on restricted stock units and the gap in um equity compensation between men and women, which is a huge portion of the highest um earning. I mean, it's a big portion, a growing portion of everyone's compensation, but especially at those top, top levels. And also just consideration for sectors. If you exclude yourself, if there's a majority of men in technology, which is turning into AI, um which then results in, you know, challenges in some of the top and most growing areas of the economy, then that is just compounding, you know, kind of the stats.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it really is. And as I think about it, you know, I I'm a chief marketing officer. That was my job when I was on uh the corporate side of things. And so in some ways, you also have to think about how what are the launching paths from the C-suites, which are discipline related, into a CEO role, because that's really where the money is, right? Is is the CEO role. And um, there's a reason that they they are compensated the way that they are because of the work that needs to be done. But if you think about it, you know, uh HR is not a is not, especially in financial services, is is not the path, the career pathing toward a CEO. And as you said, that's where the the compensation and the benefits and the the truly the the really the golden handcuffs or the end of the line, that wealth gap uh is. And if you're not under contract and you're not getting those benefits as part of your executive package because you might have a C role entitled, but you don't have it in benefits, that's that's where women are really missing out. But that that really comes back to the career pathing, which I think is important to talk about too, because so the good news is that women are the majority of college graduates in the United States now. The bad news is that women go into lower paying majors than men. So again, that compounds the issue with it. And that means that not only did they earn less over their career, do they have less opportunity for advancement into those higher paying executive roles, but also they care because they make lower, they make less when they graduate from college, they pay off student loans longer, right? So they're in debt longer for that education that they went to get. So I think when we think about it, it's it's thinking about and understanding, first of all, when we go into education and and we go into look at our college majors and we're having this conversation with our with our girls and our young women to just simply say, you know, are you aware of how much it's gonna cost you to get the degree that you have? You know, I mentioned that I have a my uh degree is in sociology, and my mom was just like, what in the world are you ever gonna do with that? And I was like, don't worry, I'm scrappy, I'll figure it out. Um, but I ended up, you know, doing that. And I I didn't take out a whole lot of student debt in which to do it, but you have to be calculated in terms of that education. You need there there is a cost-benefit analysis that we need to understand. And I think that's really hard when we think about that when you're 18 or 22 and you're trying to figure out what you want to do with your life, what you're good at. And then those decisions weigh into your entire financial life, right? So I think educating ourselves about career pathing, understanding that the the road that we're gonna go down. And then I think the other thing is when it comes to advancement and opportunities for women and showing up that gap is making sure that women are advocating for themselves in the fact that we are actively looking around for a career pathing. Is there development for me in the organization that I am in? Can I identify a mentor? Can I identify um networking opportunities? And I think taking some of those maybe's taking some uh courses, some training, finding somebody you trust to have a conversation with, women are negotiators are historically terrible negotiators. So finding those things, and I always I always think about it as like challenging myself every year from a professional level to do something that I suck at. And so I'm always like, what am I gonna do that I know makes me uncomfortable, that I don't feel good about about doing, because I know that I need to learn how to do it. And one of those things that I think is um for most a lot of women is the art of negotiation, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I'll just pause and say that um, you know, it can be really powerful, especially earlier in your career, to get outside of the comfort zone. And sometimes you might need to gamify things just like you described, like, oh, I every year I need to do something that scares me in essence, or I'm not good at. Or um, you know, it may be perceived in terms of how we've been culturally normalized to feel like asking for something, um, raising hand, looking for attention is not socially acceptable for women. And yet that is what the employer is looking for when it comes to um raises, when it comes to opportunities, when you know, that voice in the room that is perhaps stronger and will be a bigger contributor in the room. And so um, you may need to challenge yourself to those commitments, just like you described, Bryn. Yeah. Um in order to get away from kind of cultural norms that may be putting you um making you less visible in a corporate setting.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think that's really true. And I I think that I love that idea of less visible. I don't think that we we have to think about the optics of it. And we really do have to manage that, especially as women who have um uh desire to advance their careers and go into the C-suite. We have to think about what it looks like from the outside looking in, and we need to be our own best advocate. And so I like what you're saying. Uh, there's a couple of things that that come to mind for me as I have been part of a lot of women's networking groups and professional development throughout the years. One of the things that you hear a lot from women is that they will say, you know, well, I didn't apply for the job because I read the job description and I had I I had seven out of the ten uh areas of expertise. And that is not an attitude that men have at all. Men will look at it and they'll be like, Well, I got I got seven out of ten, I'll fake it out. I got three out of ten. Yeah, I'll fake it. Three out of ten. I'm good. I will figure it out. And I think that that's the the confidence gap for women and understanding that. But I think you also hit on another thing, which is the cultural norm. So women are taught at a very early age and we go through our primary years and education. And how do you get rewarded in education? You get rewarded for someone notices that you performed well and you get a good grade, and you raise your hand to say your answer to your response, and you are promoted to the next grade. You don't ask for any of those things. You simply are a good student that follows the rules and does the work, and you get acknowledged and you get moved along. Well, that is not how it works in the business world, and we all know that, right? So you don't just get acknowledged for showing up every day. You don't get acknowledged for doing a good job and writing that paper. You also have to be your own best advocate and train yourself to not only negotiate, but to show up, have the conversation, ask for what you need, ask and demonstrate what I can do to help in this next part of it. So I think it's it's really overcoming that I'm a good student and taking that mentality to the business world because it's not going to help you in the advancement of your career. You really need to um, you really need to be your own best advocate and you need to find your path and you need to find the supporters to come with you, right? So I love the fact that you and I are having this conversation. We've actually never met in person, right? But through networking of social media and being interested in what each other do, we get to sit down and have this conversation. That's exactly how we better financial women's financial lives and how we uh address the advancement and the opportunity gap.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. And I also will just mention, you know, thinking back to the areas of profession that women choose to pursue in college. I mean, if you think of some of the most um uh female dominated um majors, such as sociology and or social work eventually, um, or teaching, which I, you know, very strongly want a great generation of teachers coming. But um, you know, you could walk away with undergraduate loans and then an expectation that in order to have a full career at a moderate um earning level relative to peers, you still need a master's degree. So that student loan challenge is actually compounded. And then anecdotally, I'm looking at the um Wealth Management Association for a local university, which has a terrific program that I would encourage anyone to participate in. And I'm happy that many um males are participating in, but there's just few and far between in terms of female faces, even though there are many women who have interest in economics and finance, but maybe don't feel like they fit in because they're, you know, kind of an anomaly still in the groups. So it is so important to think about the economics of what you need to borrow and what you would be earning. It's only going to become more important as um college financing continues to be very challenging with not a lot of breaks for student loans.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think that's really true. And I I think that that's a a lovely segue to a little bit more of the the micro side of it. So what can we do individually? And I I think that um I thought about I thought about this a lot before we we had our conversation today. And I I have some pretty good examples in it. And I being a woman in finance, and I, you know, I have a personality where, like I said, before I'm scrappy, but I I'm not I'm I'm always willing to ask a question if I don't understand what's going on. A lot of people aren't like that, and I understand that, but I think that that's the most important thing that we can do for our daughters, for our wives, our girlfriends, our significant others. Uh the best thing that we can do for the women in our lives is we can normalize the conversation around money. Because as you, as you alluded to, you know, you live and work in the financial or the um wealth management world. And, you know, the some of the scariest statistics are women would rather talk about their own death than their financial lives. They just don't feel confident in it. And I'm sure that you see this every day that women don't feel confident, they're very risk averse, they don't feel confident in making investment choices, they don't feel confident in making financial plans, anything that is far-reaching. And I think that that is because we don't normalize the conversation around money. And I think because women aren't confident in that, and we're not checking in on one another, normalizing that conversation, I think that's the best opportunity that we have. And I'll give an example that I think set me down a road to feel like I could live a very financially strong life. And it was very simple conversation when I was out of college with my sociology degree, which paid off, mom. And I took my first job that had benefits and I had a conversation with my mom and um my bonus dad. And I said, you know, so I'm really excited. It's a great job, it's got benefits, all of it. And the first convert the first thing out of um my parents' mouth was they have a matching program for your 401k. And I'm 22 years old, and I'm like, Well, yeah. Okay, wait, how much? How much is it? And I was like, Oh, okay, I don't know, but I'll find out. It they're like, it's gonna be a percentage of your paycheck, and they will match it and they'll save it for you. And I was like, Oh, that's great. I'll definitely sign up for that. My mom goes, You do realize that you have to put in part to match, right? Oh, oof, that seemed like an awful lot of money on that first paycheck, right? But I did it, I followed the advice of 22 years old, and that is going to allow me again. This is where the women living longer makes it better, is that you know, it's the po the power of compounding. And the fact is, is that I started when I was 22 years old, and in that match, and I did what I could every year, and I normalize my parents normalized the conversation. They asked the question, they checked in on me to make sure that I was taking care of myself. Um, and I think that that's a huge piece of what we can do. Um, normalize the conversation, encourage our women and girls to start early to take care of themselves. I always have this conversation with my um when I when I first with met with a financial planner in my early 30s, you know, they're like, Well, what is your financial goal? And I was like, to take care of old me. Like, I want to make sure that old me is taken care of. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. I would say pretty simple, right? Well, another cultural norm for women is that you take care of community before yourself in some cases. Right. Um in studies, women are shown to be thinking of money more communally. And it's okay to put yourself first because in many cases you're the last one living. In some cases, things don't work out as you planned and you end up divorced or single. Yeah. Um, and you know, you want the best for your kids, maybe, or other family members, but also um there often is not anyone left to take care of yourselves. And I even feel like as a financial planner, um, that people really need to talk about what could go wrong because when you end up being that person in the relationship who is not um the primary breadwinner where your um income perhaps is lower, it's easily expendable in a conversation with a financial planner when they're saying, hey, childcare costs a lot, or mom and dad need care, maybe we reduce hours. Well, what happens if what we assume will be the case forever is not the case? For example, if there is a divorce or there's a loss of income for the other person. There are so many considerations where I love the goal of putting yourself first and saying, I want to make sure I'm okay. And that's actually a blessing and a gift to the people around you because then they don't need to take care of you in many cases.

SPEAKER_01:

So I love that as a goal. I I think that that to me, normalizing conversation around money, allowing people to check in. I do this frequently with those that the women around me, how are things? Things good. And I, you know, I'm surrounded by some pretty powerful women and I enjoy that. And it's it's a great thing. But we check in and we also have a conversation about, and I just had this conversation the other day uh with a young woman that has come to work for me. And I said, you know, okay, so what are your goals? Where do you want to go? Not only from a career perspective, but also how are you doing in your financial life? Put yourself first. It's it it's little things like doing the match, but it's also little things like, you know, and I'm not a financial planner, but this was a good piece of advice that I got a long time ago, which was every time you get a raise, you just take half of it and you put it into your retirement savings.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, nudge up that retirement when you get the raise or at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_01:

But you didn't have it before, right? So you got a raise, so take half of it. And I always say save it toward old me. I mean, it is absolutely prioritizing and doing the little things to make sure that you can take care of yourself because and I love that sentiment from you uh with when you're meeting with your financial planner. Let's again, nobody wants to talk about that. Nobody wants to plan for their own demise, nobody wants to talk about a possible divorce, but let's be realistic here. Let's have the real conversations and normalize them so that we can take care of ourselves. Because you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02:

I do think a financial plan can be a um micro action. Um, in some cases, I've encouraged clients, you know. Know, I've said, hey, your your salary relative to what I would expect you to be making. See a lot of people's salaries is a little bit lower. Can you ask for more? Have you considered, you know, you may have big goals and plan to retire earlier. And it's like, hey, this goal is doable, but maybe not on your current income. You may need a different job, a different um pay range in order to accomplish things. And we've had results where those types of outcomes have occurred. So the goal is not to end up with the most money, but the goal is to optimize and do take care of both your current and future self. And so one of the actions can be have and pay someone to look at you and your life and think, how could we do things? Um, how can we incrementally change things on the upside? Um, get over those deficits that happen when it comes to pay gaps and instead have compounding returns of good financial decisions, including managing your human capital, which is what we're talking about today. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and I love that, I love that. And what a what a value add for your clients to say, hmm, okay, so you're in a particular position that well, you know that the comps are this, you would expect that from your real estate agent. So what we would want to know what the comps on our salary are. And, you know, I I always think that that's again one of those micro things that we can do, which is as women, we should be asking the questions. We should be negotiating, we should not be presuming. And I'll tell you that, yeah, it's it's it's scary. Sure, it's scary to go ask for more money. Well, but be prepared. Be prepared as to why you should be paid more. Be prepared to answer the question why you should be promoted. What is the value that you bring? Know your worth and understand it so that you can advocate and you can negotiate. And when I think about those things, yeah, it's scary, but there's two things that are gonna come out of that. One, from a sphere factor, what's the worst thing that can happen? They say no. Okay. Well, then secondly, what you understand immediately is where do you stand? And do you need to make different changes? Is there career pathing? Is there position? Is there opportunities for advancement for you where you currently are? I'm not saying shake it up just to do it, but it's it's it's good to understand where you are uh when it comes to the advancement and and how that aligns with your financial goals and what you believe the value is that you bring to a position. So that's the know your worth side of it is being able to advocate and negotiate for yourself with that idea that you are you are making a financial plan to better your own financial life.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I'll give you one example, just thinking about that negotiating and pay. There's two ways you could look at this situation. Um, let's say that your employer um reviews your salary at once a year and they say, you know what, we've done a salary review, and it turns out actually, we're gonna give you a big salary adjustment because relative to peers, um, we need to make an adjustment. Well, what is that telling you? A, you've been undercompensated for a period of time. B, they may be hiring in people who don't have your skills, your experience in this position at a higher rate because it's not competitive to hire in at this rate. So follow-up questions, I mean, you can look at it as, oh my gosh, thank you so much. You can also look at it as maybe I should have been managing and negotiating more because I'm behind the pay scale. Um, but follow-up questions would be do you anticipate I will continue to receive higher than average raises? Um, and how far is the gap? Because oftentimes if there are, you know, companies that have scrimped on raises in the past, they're not, they're not making you true true up in year one. Um and you may need to shop around at other employers. Um, even if you boomerang back to the same employer, you might be hired in at a higher rate. Um, so all of these things are tricky to navigate, you know, and it is a tight rope. Um, but you don't always assume that without active um kind of both negotiation, inquiry, and career management that you are getting, you know, kind of the longing of the stick. It's not necessarily the case.

SPEAKER_01:

That's true. And I think that you're you're absolutely right. And and we have to be really good advocates and we have to negotiate, especially when we're going into a new position, because that really sets the that level, sets what that relationship is gonna be. That's your first basically performance review of how you went through that interview and that negotiation for your pay and your benefits. And again, I would go back and I would say if you ask for, if they're make you an offer, you negotiate, most men are gonna negotiate. Most about a third of women are gonna negotiate, we know, when we when we see offer letters come out. Uh it's unfortunate, but I think um, again, it's a fear of, oh, well, well, what if they don't want to, what if they say no? You know, does that mean they don't get the job? And so I think, yes, that's important to understand. But if they say no or they're not willing to negotiate, or they're not willing to meet you halfway or do anything in terms of what you're asking for when you tell them what you're worth and why, when they're making you the offer, that tells you right there where that relationship is going to go. And so for me, it's kind of a big red flag. And I might be like, oh, maybe this isn't the type of company that I want to work for, or maybe it's not expanding on its values or demonstrating them in its hiring practices. So I think just being, as you said, being aware and it's not. I think genuinely people, especially on the recruiting and hiring side, try to do the right thing. I do. But I think it's also that we need to make sure that we know our worth and that we are are constantly um evaluating that and saying, you know, where am I at in in terms of where I want to be? And am I still on the right road to get there?

SPEAKER_02:

I love that, Bren. And unfortunately, I'm so passionate about this topic, as are you. We could talk forever about it, but where can people find the information that you gathered on? We'll make sure to include it in show notes, but um, and continue to pursue as you work on this women and worth topic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I uh thank you for the time. And you're right, we could we could go on for quite a bit. Um, and it's it's it's been a pleasure. You're very easy to talk to because thank you very much. Um check out uh BC Consulting um and strategies beyond creative uh.com. That's the website. Um, I'm also on LinkedIn and X. Um and we I try to um I try to continually have conversations about women and worth. Um so writing columns or whether it's uh a news article that we see, but I think that that's the most important thing that I would say is that yes, you can connect with me and I would love to have a conversation with you about it. But I think that where I'd ultimately like women and worth to go and the impact that I'd like to see made is let's just keep it top of mind, Melissa. Let's just make sure constantly thinking about how can we better women's financial lives and we're all in it together. Um, so what are the little things that we can do every day to do that? And um, I appreciate you having me on and taking the time to visit with Moon today.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'll pre-commit to every time that I read a frustrating article about the state of affairs to reassessing how I'm approaching things, both in my own life as I manage my own worth and human capital, but also in the advice that I give to others. Um, if you're listening and you are taking all of this to heart in the way you operate as a manager, if you are managing people. And if you're a listener who's one of those um individual contributors, thinking about how you could change your role over time. There's so much to unpack. Um, but I think the underlying message is take that um information from passive to an actively integrating it into yourself and your financial life, and then we'll all be making some internal changes that hopefully improve things for ourselves as well as future generations of women. Thank you, Brand. So glad you could join us.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Melissa.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for listening to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. If you found value in this episode, the best way that you can support the podcast is to forward an episode to a friend or leave a review. Go to ProPlan.com and the podcast link to get all the resources and links mentioned. This presentation by Pearl Planning is intended for general information purposes only. No portion of this presentation serves as the receipt of or substitute for personal investment advice from Pro Planning or any other investment professional of your choosing. Copies of Pro Planning's current rent and disclosure brochure and from CRS discussing our advisory services and fees are available upon request or on our website platform at PerlPlan.com. The information that we share is meant to educate and inspire, not serve as personalized financial advice. Everyone's situation is unique, so be sure to consult with your own financial professional for guidance that fits your life. And just so you know, the opinions shared in this podcast are Melissa's own and those of her guests. They don't necessarily represent any organizations with which Melissa is affiliated. For more important disclosures, please go to our webpage at proplan.com.

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Melissa Joy, CFP

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